Faith, Works, or Both?
posted by: FaithFalcon
April 11, 2008
12:42 pm
I know.
But it has come up all too often these days in my discussions with non-Catholics. That and Reconciliation. Are these big trouble-makers for you guys too?
Not the main question though.
Q: Is just believing in God enough to get you to heaven?
A: "Is it enough for you to live your life for Him? like imagine that you knew beyond a shawdow of doubt that there was 2 million dollars on Main Street. you believed this with all your heart. wouldn't you do everything in your power to get that money? so if you have the "right" ( for the lack of a better word) kind of faith for God..you're going to want to live for Him. however if you just believe in GOd but don't feel a need to devote your life to Him that just means you REALLY don't believe in everything God is and everything He has in store for you if you follow Him with your whole heart. That is the kind of faith God calls us too. so yes it is enough just to believe in God IF that faith results a desire to pursue God. no it is NOT enough if the faith is just agreeing that God exisists."
In a nutshell- " 'Are works necessary' is a non-issue, since if you really love God, you'll do good works anyway.
Thoughts on this from a Catholic standpoint?
posted by: David T Garrison
April 11, 2008
1:50 pm
you will know they are my disciples by the love they show for one another - so, yes, we receive the gift of faith, and, as Cleopas and his friend on the road to Emmaus, our hearts burn within us.
both
There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: noelfitz
April 12, 2008
2:16 am
At present there is some agreement between various Christians on justification.
Please see:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
and
http://sfbayc.org/magazine/html/justification_catholic_-_luthe.htm.
From the latter I quote:
(T)he Lutheran World Federation and the
Catholic Church declare together:...(t)he understanding of the doctrine of
justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic
truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and
Catholics" (JD 40).
God bless,
NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
posted by: fishman
April 12, 2008
9:42 pm
'is simply believing enough' — Santan has NO DOUBT that God exists yet is not saved, because he does not love him. So I'd say the answer is no. You must believe and THEN follow through with loving him, loving him naturally leads to acting on hi will ... as is the case between any two lovers who act to please one another.
It really is that simple and a silly thing for people to fight about.
posted by: MREINER16
April 13, 2008
7:17 am
FaithFalcon- I think you may find help and understanding from what James has to say (James 2: 14-26)
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
Epistle Of Saint James
posted by: noelfitz
April 13, 2008
12:45 pm
fishman & MREINWER16
Thank you for your posts.
I was pleased to read them carefully.
Recently we have few contributuoins to this Roundtable. For a while we were getting about one a day.
I look forward to the contributions to this site, as here we can discuss our faith among friends.
Fishman concludes his post with:
It really is that simple and a silly thing for people to fight about.
In fact it is not a simple problem. The problem of justification was one of the most fundamental theological differences between Catholics and Reformers.
The topic was hotly discussed by some of the finest minds and sincerest Christians for hundreds of years. It is only recently that agreements have been worked out.
If one thinks religion/Christianity is important and that our beliefs make a difference then this discusssion is not silly.
Religious wars have been fought and many have been killed due partially to this topic.
Mreiner16 quotes James, as many Catholics have, while Proteatants focused on Paul.
It is mportant to get an the overall view of the Bible.
I include some quotes from Paul's authentic letters for balance.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace ( New Revised Standard Version, Ro 11:6).
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing (New Revised Standard Version, Ga 2:21).
Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law (New Revised Standard Version, Ro 3:27-28).
God bless,
NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
posted by: MREINER16
April 13, 2008
2:08 pm
noelfitz- I try to take a look at the forum as often as I can, but life is busy! I did not mean to use James as just the Catholic perspective, but to illustarte that faith and works are in my opinion absolutley intertwined. It's like discussing Good Friday and Easter-which is the more important event-how can one answer since they are connected. I see faith and works in much the same light.
posted by: noelfitz
April 13, 2008
2:50 pm
MREINER16
Thanks once more for your contributions.
I know it is hard to find time to contribute here.
It is very encouaraging to realize that at present there is so much agreement between Lutherans and Catholics.
I quiote some more from http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html5.
The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ.
14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________