Adversarial Prayer
posted by: michaelme
January 30, 2008
12:26 pm
In a recent discussion of an article I made a statement that the “prayers” being offered seemed to me to be “adversarial.” In particular, the prayers seemed specifically designed to provoke a response in the reader of the prayer rather than suggest a petition to God – or, if they were petitions, they were akin to “God, get rid of those who disagree with my side.”
This is not a discussion about the authors of those prayers, but one in which I want to solicit the opinions of the CERT as to whether prayers of this sort:
- Represent some sort of abrogation of the Second Commandment, where one would seek to “make God is his own image.”
- Are hurtful to the call to Charity
- Are actually valid (and I should, therefore, apologize and shut up)
If you need me to explain further, I’ll try. I’m still trying to clarify all of my thoughts on the subject.
posted by: lpioch
January 30, 2008
12:46 pm
Well, I find myself making "adversarial" prayer when I am angered. Anger is not a sin. However, acting on anger or letting it take over you can be a sin. I try desperately to remember in my angered prayer to add "But your will be done...not mine."
posted by: michaelme
January 30, 2008
1:07 pm
Loretta:
Thanks. I know that I can be the same way. I do think that the prayer that was issued may have been as a result of anger or hurt...both emotions with which I can empathize. Might I have been too strong in pointing this out? I try to be charitably direct but sometimes, I think, I probably come off as terse or pedantic.
My thinking is that this type of prayer, especially when made publicly, both diminishes Charity and "uses the Lord's Name in vain." I would really like your opinion, and those of others.
In Chrst,
Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"
- GK Chesterton
"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - also GKC
posted by: lpioch
January 30, 2008
2:39 pm
I think the biggest problem is that you are communicating in a very a-emotional medium. Email, forums, and the like are completely void of really being about to convey emotion. I often give leniency (maybe I shouldn't?) because of this fact.
However, if it is "behavior" that is often seen or repeated, I think it wise to simply remind people that charity must always be the first rule. Even when suggesting prayer for another.
One more point I'd make, however...if you gently remind people to always be charitable in their words...and you get an uncharitable response in reply (which includes any version of "you are a hypocrite")...it usually means you are more on the mark than you originally suspected.
Now, as to this being an offense against the 2nd commandment, I never really thought of it in that light, and will give it more thought, reflection, and prayer because I think it is a good point. I think the point is more in the publicly made "prayer" than in one's own personal prayer.
Because I always try to see myself as a small child before God. And I can certainly picture my children coming up to me basically begging me to do what THEY want and not what ought to be done. I think God then smiles at us in our stupid arrogance as a child. He still won't give us the snake that we think is gold. But when we start spouting our mouths off in public, it takes on a whole 'nother level of accountability and responsibility.
posted by: bhokuto
January 30, 2008
4:24 pm
'if' "the will" is there is the question.
If the will to harm, hurt, do damage, then do not act on it.
Instead seek the way of peace, calm, this allows God to work
in your prayer request. God is peaceful not hurtful by nature.
I've been contemplating and studying "Thought".
When I sit still and close my eyes and focus on some object I can hear
voices intruding. Than one by one I shut them out until I identify "my" thoughts which is a 'voice'. For we are not dead, but alive and a voice
is what determines if we are alive or dead. A thought is actualy a series
of voices. We can actually hear others thoughts if you know how to focus. This is where all these other religions, spiritualists, necromancers, witch crafters get there influences from. Voices.
Whose voice are you following? God or Satan?
A thought is a sound in your body somewhere, whether it's near your head or near your chest. This may seem like a new definition but it is not. We just haven't looked at it this way. But you try it and listen within. What do you hear? So if you hear then it is a voice.
Peace
posted by: MREINER16
January 30, 2008
8:35 pm
I did not read the first artcile that you refrred to so what I say may be a bit out of context. I think it would be obviously not inspired prayer to want harm or evil to befall another individual. However, as in the Psalms can we point out the evilness of nations or groups that oppose God? The Psalms are the inspired Word of God and so what are we to make of it when we read Psalm 139:19-23
I think there is a clear distinction between praying for harm to another person and praying as in the Psalm above in the good intention of honoring God.
posted by: michaelme
January 31, 2008
10:16 am
Mreiner:
I don’t think it necessary to read the article and replies to get the gist of what I am trying to say…I thing you clearly “got it.”
You have a very interesting point, I think. The psalm calls for the destruction of “the wicked” or “the bloodthirsty” or “those.” This implies not necessarily a nation but individuals, grouped though they may be. In the article and prayer I reference, certain individuals were hailed as persons of integrity while of others it was said, “Not so…” The prayer at the end then requested of God, to my reading, to essentially get rid of those lacking “integrity” and provide us with those who possess it. My problem was that “integrity” appeared to be based on agreement with the author, absent any evidence that those in disagreement held a view demonstrating of a lack of “integrity.” (The contrary was, unfortunately, lacking enough information to be dispositive to the question of “integrity.") Some other “prayers” in the commentary following the article appeared to me to be in the same vein.
The “harm,” as I see it, is not physical in nature but reputational. By praying in this manner, those against whom the “prayer” was offered were neither the beneficiaries of the petition, nor recipients of a curse for their (wicked) stance…rather, in my opinion, they were held up, publicly, as those who should be berated because of a position that, while disagreeing with the author’s, may or may not be wicked or lacking in “integrity.” In other words, it was not so much a prayer as an argumentative part of the article.
Again, you have a strong point. I’m going to have to think about what you’re saying since it certainly appears scriptural to petition God for some “harm.” The phrase “Deceitfully they invoke your name,” is very much to my point.
In Christ,
Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"
- GK Chesterton
"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - also GKC
posted by: bhokuto
February 1, 2008
4:04 pm
We can call it "cheesy" prayers.
This relates to Jesus talking about the two who went into the temple to pray. The one was praying using such words to try and seem religious,
while the other was prostrate on the ground said a few words. Lord forgive me an "ant", you're infinite and perfect, have mercy.
Peace
posted by: noelfitz
February 2, 2008
3:10 pm
B
It is difficult for me to understand you.
You seem to have direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
How do you Know that what you recount actually happened?
This relates to Jesus talking about the two who went into the temple to pray. The one was praying using such words to try and seem religious,
while the other was prostrate on the ground said a few words. Lord forgive me an "ant", you're infinite and perfect, have mercy.
Compare your version with Lk 18:9-14 (NRSV):
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
posted by: David T Garrison
March 31, 2008
5:51 am
In prayer we must learn what we can truly ask of God—what is worthy of God. We must learn that we cannot pray against others. We must learn that we cannot ask for the superficial and comfortable things that we desire at this moment—that meagre, misplaced hope that leads us away from God. We must learn to purify our desires and our hopes. We must free ourselves from the hidden lies with which we deceive ourselves. God sees through them, and when we come before God, we too are forced to recognize them. Pope benedict XVI - Spe Salvi 33
There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!