Catholocism{if you must, Christianity} is the fulfillment of Judaism
posted by: David T Garrison
December 5, 2007
9:02 am
Judaism as it was known before Christ, according to the Holy Spirit of God, through the words of Paul, no longer exists in the eyes of God.
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
posted by: dado
December 7, 2007
9:36 pm
You might be interested in the CCC on this point:
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
(footnote 325) Lumen Gentium 16:Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.[18] There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9:4-5): in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Rom. 11:29-29).
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
I think that I would not be too sure of that "which no longer exists in the eyes of God." for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Rom. 11:29-29) as noted above.
Dado
AMDG
posted by: David T Garrison
December 7, 2007
10:28 pm
Dado,
ok - I'll bite.
If Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies, then what does God seek in or from Judaism?
Has God not delivered His Gift to the world? Does not all grace and mercy flow through the heart of Jesus?
I am not saying that the Holy Spirit does not seek to convert the hearts of the obstinate, but I read what you posted in 847 and without reading through 841 - 846 which you did not post, I am also interested in the words of 848 where it so aptly states,' to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him'...
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: Winslow
December 8, 2007
10:37 am
Dado, that "which no longer exists in the eyes of God." is a covenant which existed before the coming of the Messiah, Who came to them first and was rejected.
How is it possible for the Old Covenant to remain, even in the eyes of God, when the New has arrived to replace it?
I realize "to replace it" might be deemed presumptive, but is there any other way to look at it?
posted by: Protect the Rock
December 8, 2007
9:35 pm
Regarding what does God want from Judaism anymore nowadays:
Maybe it goes back to Noah...
I mean, didn't God promise that He wouldn't destroy the whole world again?
So maybe He is simply keeping His promise by letting Judaism stick around, as He does Ishmael's progeny, and so forth.
posted by: David T Garrison
December 8, 2007
10:20 pm
PTR,
I would profer, and I do not think that I would be the first by any stretch of the imagination{see 1st post in this thread}, that God has made a New Covenant with His people, Israel, which as it turns out if one was an astute reader always was everyone.
I am reminded of the man who queries God upon entering heaven after he died in a flood and had beseeched him for help while facing his hardship, Lord, why did you not save me? To which the Lord replied, I sent you a firetruck, a canoe and a helicopter...
What modern Jewish factional leader does not know of Jesus Christ? The followers of these Rebbe's and Grand Rebbe's may be dealt with more more mercy than those who for two thousand years have denied what Jesus said the work of God is to believe in the One He sent.
Please, because I may have missed it in my studies, what is this promise? Is God, in His speaking to the Israelites of the Old Testament speaking of them when He seeks to bring home a remnant or is it those who will have maintained faith in Jesus during the end times?
In Christ
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: bhokuto
December 8, 2007
10:58 pm
As I see it,
It was like this:
Abraham father of many nations, if you can number the sands of the sea so are your offsprings. Same passed down to Issac and Jacob.
Hebrews in Egypt slaves for 400 years no religion as we see it because no Law or rituals from God presented to Israel as they were in foreign country with foreign gods.
Saved from Egypt, Law given to Moses, becomes "Mosaic Law" in reference, but, Laws of God.
Over the centuries Israel ascends and descends countless times, loses grace often.
Finally, the Messaiah arrives during capitivity to Romans. They still refer to Moses and Abraham, but it's still the Laws of God.
I think if you focus on the Laws of God rather than traditional names like Judiaism, Jewish Religion, Jewish Laws, Mosaic Laws, you would be better off. This seems to get tongue twisted when trying to refer to some "race" having a religion which came from God.
So, the best thing in my old age is to simply remember that God created all things and that
what He has done is for the best interest of those who have Faith in Him. Rather than hassaling over mumbo jumbo that gets you tied up in knots. Just pitch a straight line from
Adam to now and plot and realize it's not about race nor some form of past religion but of the current Christ who was and is and ever shall be. If they don't like it well pray for them!
Peace
posted by: dado
December 8, 2007
11:48 pm
The CCC hints at the relationship of the Jewish people and the old covenant to God continuing, but here is a more complete explanation. It is an excerpt from: The Jewish People And Their Sacred Scriptures In The Christian Bible from the Pontifical Biblical Commission when Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was prefect. Pay particular attention to paragraph 4 and the fragment at the end from section 85. Here is a link to the document on EWTN. The introduction by Cardinal Ratzinger sheds some light on how Protestants view the linkage between the Old and New Testaments.
www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCJWSCR.HTM#2.%20Exegesis%20at%20Qumran%20and%20in%20the%20New%20Testament
41. The Letters of Paul discuss the issue of the covenant more than once. The “new covenant” founded on the blood of Christ (1 Co 11:25) has a vertical dimension of union with the Lord through the “communion with the blood of Christ” (1 Co 10:6) and a horizontal dimension of the union of all Christians in “one body” (1 Co 10:17).
The apostolic ministry is at the service of the “new covenant” (2 Co 3:6), which is not “of the letter”, like that of Sinai, but “of the Spirit”, in accordance with the prophecies which promised that God would write his Law “on their hearts” (Jr 31:33) and give “a new spirit” that would be his Spirit. 135 Paul mentions more than once the covenant-law of Sinai, 136 he contrasts it with the covenant-promise of Abraham. The covenant-law is later and provisional (Ga 3:19-25). The covenant-promise is prior and definitive (Ga 3:16-18). From the beginning it has a universal openness. 137 It finds its fulfilment in Christ. 138
Paul opposes the covenant-law of Sinai, on the one hand, to the extent that it competes with faith in Christ (“a person is justified not by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ”: Ga 2:16; Rm 3:28), and, on the other, insofar as it is a legal system of a particular people, which should not be imposed on believers coming from the “nations”. But Paul affirms the value of revelation of “the old diathk”, that is to say, the writings of the “Old Testament”, which are to be read in the light of Christ (2 Co 3:14-16).
For Paul, Jesus' establishment of “the new covenant in [his] blood” (1 Co 11:25), does not imply any rupture of God's covenant with his people, but constitutes its fulfilment. He includes “the covenants” among the privileges enjoyed by Israel, even if they do not believe in Christ (Rm 9:4). Israel continues to be in a covenant relationship and remains the people to whom the fulfilment of the covenant was promised, because their lack of faith cannot annul God's fidelity (Rm 11:29). Even if some Israelites have observed the Law as a means of establishing their own justice, the covenant-promise of God, who is rich in mercy (Rm 11:26-27), cannot be abrogated. Continuity is underlined by affirming that Christ is the end and the fulfilment to which the Law was leading the people of God (Ga 3:24). For many Jews, the veil with which Moses covered his face remains over the Old Testament (2 Co 3:13,15), thus preventing them from recognising Christ's revelation there. This becomes part of the mysterious plan of God's salvation, the final outcome of which is the salvation of “all Israel” (Rm 11:26).
The “covenants of promise” are explicitly mentioned in Ep 2:12 to announce that access to them is now open to the “nations”, Christ having broken down “the wall of separation”, that is to say, the Law which blocked access to them for non-Jews (cf. Ep 2:14-15).
The Pauline Letters, then, manifest a twofold conviction: the insufficiency of the legal covenant of Sinai, on the one hand, and on the other, the validity of the covenant-promise. This latter finds its fulfilment in justification by faith in Christ, offered “to the Jew first, but also to the Greek” (Rm 1:16). Their refusal of faith in Christ places the Jewish people in a situation of disobedience, but they are still “loved” and promised God's mercy (cf. Rm 11:26-32).
85...
Israel's election is made concrete and specific in the Sinai covenant and by the institutions based on it, especially the Law and the Temple. The New Testament is in continuity with this covenant and its institutions. The new covenant foretold by Jeremiah and established in the blood of Jesus has come through the covenant between God and Israel, surpassing the Sinai covenant by a new gift of the Lord that completes and carries forward the original gift. Likewise, “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” (Rm 8:2), which gives an interior dynamism, remedies the weakness (8:3) of the Sinai Law and renders believers capable of living a disinterested love that is the “fulfilment of the Law” (Rm 13:10). As regards the earthly Temple, the New Testament, borrowing terms prepared by the Old Testament, relativises the adequacy of a material edifice as a dwelling place of God (Ac 7:48), and points to a relationship with God where the emphasis is on interiority. In this point, as in many others, it is obvious that the continuity is based on the prophetic movement of the Old Testament.
In the past, the break between the Jewish people and the Church of Christ Jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete. In the light of the Scriptures, this should never have occurred. For a complete break between Church and Synagogue contradicts Sacred Scripture.
Dado
AMDG
posted by: bhokuto
December 9, 2007
3:02 am
One other thought to consider to the above that I posted:
Before the Tower Of Babel was constructed the world spoke one language.
So the world will revert back to one language at some point in the future of Gods Universe.
The idea of having multiple languages was God's doing because man was being foolish by the inspirations of his desire to reach God on his own merits and thoughts. Vanity.
Also, back to Genesis which we can never be without, Abel was the line which was cutoff by Cain. Seth was given in Abels place.
Cain's lineage was that of evil intent, he succumb to pride and murdered his brother.
Abel's lineage if he would have lived would've have been the righteous, the just. Seth instead was given to make up for the loss.
But somewhere down the years, Cains blood mixed with blood of the just and thus the world was in chaos and Noah arrives. Noah was not tainted by the mixing of the two, good blood and evil blood. So Noah was chosen by God to repopulate the world and keep the lineage to Christ. Rather long lineage of ins and outs of different races.
The explanation I received was that Abel was pure of heart. After Adam and Eve sinned they were given two children to raise, one was evil and one was good. Tree of Good and Evil split hairs in marriages often. So this account is why some folks have really evil children and really good ones too. Can't be helped unless one is just.
So if you marry in sin, be prepared to reap the consequences. [ Very touchy subject ]. There's more to it, this is a short explanation.
The Proud line of Adam and Eve created Cain, when they repented they received, Abel. The pride of Cain because he was first born, jealousy killed Abel. Then, God gave to Adam and Eve, Seth. Genesis 4:25
Seth was given the way back to God. Genesis 4:26
Since Adam and Eve blew it, they gave birth to first born who commited the first murder in the history of man, the line of pride went to Cain and the line of holiness went with Seth. From this point on we can jump a few chapters to Noah. But before we read about Noah, lets read Genesis 6:2 not so good this is where the two lines converge creating a new line of Proud men. Of which Noah was not part of.
God was trying avoid the same mistake Adam and Eve had made by eating of that tree. Purging.
I think this a rather lame excuse but, I have none. Other than free will.
That's good enough. The lineage in Genesis 5 is not about Cains lineage, But of Seth who was of the Good seed passed down from Adam and Eve. Also it does not state which sons of God families inter-mingled with Cains. But we do read that the two lines had offspring creating something not worthy of life. Thus the flood.
If you understand that the beginning is about two, male and female rather than race, creed and so forth, than you understand the intricacies of which God had to manipulate around Satans devices to create races, language and so forth. Thus, prejudice is apparent between race, and color, religion and so forth. Of which a few are an outward appearance.
So the world now has the same re-occurance as in the line of Cain and Seth inter-mingling recursively. But, Noah was not of the lineage of Cain. Try to figure this out? What am I saying?
Genesis has all the answers if we keep going back to it.
Peace
posted by: David T Garrison
December 10, 2007
7:16 am
Also for the discussion, what was the role of Israel under the old covenant and are they fulfilling that part of their agreement with God today?
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: David T Garrison
December 10, 2007
7:17 am
Dado,
To highlight some of what you posted only as a means of validating the initial post.
For Paul, Jesus' establishment of “the new covenant in [his] blood” (1 Co 11:25), does not imply any rupture of God's covenant with his people, but constitutes its fulfilment.
This latter finds its fulfilment in justification by faith in Christ
Now, to ascertain what you may have wanted when you asked in your initial post to consider what the catechism teaches, and the contents of paragraph 4 in your last post, I fully agree that God's mercy is endless. His saving action on the Cross is for all, but you must, if you have been called to Jesus, by God, believe in Him and His Cross. All others that do not know Christ are also at the mercy of God, but we do not know why God has not called them to His Son or if they deny Jesus. Mystery.
To paragraph 85, I highlight the following, surpassing the Sinai covenant by a new gift of the Lord that completes and carries forward the original gift, and therefore, the closing statement is understood that there should have been no break because God's plan of salvation is continuous. The Jewish factions that have survived to the present day, less Jews for Jesus, of course, deny that Christ was the Son of the Most High God, the Messiah, the Promised One.
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: dado
December 11, 2007
1:40 am
Lets start over, I violated the first rule of speaker listener conversation and I apologize. I didn't reiterate your initial post (that is internally) and jumped to a conclusion as to what you were driving at without first understanding it. In retrospect I realize I didn't understand your topic and should have asked some questions to clarify it.
So let me ask a couple of questions; "Judaism as it was known before Christ, according to the Holy Spirit of God, through the words of Paul, no longer exists in the eyes of God."
What aspect of Judaism as it was known before Christ ceased to exist? Or rather to the point, what aspect were you trying to bring out by citing Paul?
As the conversation has moved on somewhat, was your original perspective affected by the idea that "Their refusal of faith in Christ places the Jewish people in a situation of disobedience, but they are still 'loved' and promised God's mercy (cf. Rm 11:26-32)."
Now some thoughts on the idea of whether Jews have heard the call of Christ, yes they have been called but are they fully culpable in not responding? The short answer is I suppose that we cannot judge the state of ones soul. Here are perhaps some mitigating factors.
From the Jewish prespective, Jesus made himself the Torah, "the Word of God"; "the Son of man is the Lord of the Sabbath" Mt12:8. He was rejected not because he was another rabbi with some new, novel ideas, but because he made himself equal to God. Also the idea of the Incarnation, the Word made flesh, was counter to the teaching of the Torah. (See 'No Friend in Jesus', Meir Soloveichik, First Things Ja 2008)
Dt4:15 Keep therefore your souls carefully. You saw not any similitude in the day that the Lord God spoke to you in Horeb from the midst of the fire:
And of course false prophets, even those with power, were to be expected and had been seen before.
Dt13: 1 "If there rise in the midst of thee a prophet or one that saith he hath dreamed a dream, and he foretell a sign and a wonder, 2 And that come to pass which he spoke, and he say to thee: Let us go and follow strange gods, which thou knowest not, and let us serve them: 3 Thou shalt not hear the words of that prophet or dreamer: for the Lord your God trieth you, that it may appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not. 4 Follow the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and hear his voice: him you shall serve, and to him you shall cleave.
5 And that prophet or forger of dreams shall be slain: because he spoke to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you from the house of bondage: to make thee go out of the way, which the Lord thy God commanded thee: and thou shalt take away the evil out of the midst of thee."
As an aside, note the similarity of Dt 13:1-5 to 2Peter 2:1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction...Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not: and their perdition slumbereth not. and Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise and shall seduce many." Looks like false prophets/teachers are an ages old problem.
And it seems Jesus didn't make it easy on the Jews. He spoke in parables and their hearts were hardened, those parables making it easy for the 'Jews' intellectual and religious pride, perhaps their biggest earthly treasures, to get the best of them as they would not humble themselves and become as children and come to the Lord for understanding, nor open their eyes to their weakness and sin as did the Apostles.
It wasn't as if the Apostles didn't struggle with pride, they certainly did and we who have such great gifts of grace and faith still do. But pride alone is not necessarily the only hinderence, Jesus perfectly showed himself to the world but is our Christian witness at times a hinderance?
Similar to the Pharasees of old do we likewise pick and choose which Church teachings we would follow, using of course the resort to conscience dodge? Or at best do we prefer the minimum daily requirements, that middle road that doesn't lead to real committment? Do we know our faith well enough to understand what belief in Christ really means?
How then do outsiders looking at us see an authentic Christ living among them? What difference do all these Christians make, they live no differently than the rest of us? Oh sure there is the occasional Mother Thersa, but she's a statistical anomoly.
Who can blame them if they don't hear the call of Christ? (And these are questions I ask of myself, am I truly committed, do I really believe in the Lord and trust Him? Does my life reflect this?)
Sure we can follow the stock market but do we see ourselves as God does? I think it was Mark Shea who thought we Catholics can be too introspective and spend a lot of time belly button gazing. Considering the lines at Confession I'm not sure we sometimes haven't forgotten we have belly buttons.
Having said all that I'm not about to condemn the Jews, or anyone else for that matter, who sincerely follow God as best they can. Judging is after all Gods' business. That doesn't mean that because we aren't perfect we shouldn't evangelize others, but holiness of life is the first and best tool and God can use all those who put themselves sincerely at his service. Do I hear an Amen? ;-)
Dado
AMDG
ps: Okay I went off track a bit give me a whack if I go off the deep end. Sometimes I think I'm one of those old scratchy records that skip a beat now and then, or maybe it is early senility.
posted by: Winslow
December 11, 2007
11:35 am
You get an 'Amen' from me on that last part, dado. Stuff to think about.
Having thought about the other part, Jesus did a lot of fairly astonishing stuff right in front of them. He debated them and left them scratching their heads. All He did was either witnessed by them or reported back to them. They would have none of it. All the prophets said, "Thus says the Lord." Jesus said, "I say unto you." They knew the difference. They didn't plot to kill him because He was teaching in the Temple. It was because He was a threat to their authority.
Are they culpable before God? Jesus asked that they be forgiven, so He must have thought them culpable of something.
posted by: bhokuto
December 12, 2007
2:52 pm
Nice class,
has nothing to with Gods original intent. Genesis>> we really need to understand Gods true intentions and creation.
what does it say in Revelation or the Prophets?
The language issue is for what reason?
next when evil is removed there is no need to speak 300 different languages. as all will be as God had originally ordained and created.
Peace
posted by: David T Garrison
December 12, 2007
2:58 pm
Bobo,
You wrote: Before the Tower Of Babel was constructed the world spoke one language. So the world will revert back to one language at some point in the future of Gods Universe.
I took a class where it was discussed that Peter and the apostles, upon receiving the Holy Spirit, spoke so that all men could understand in their own tongue. In this doing, God had reversed the effect of striking the world with communication chaos. God brought order back into the world with the universal message of Christ.
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: bhokuto
December 12, 2007
3:27 pm
David,
I'll give you another hint: "As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end."
The "beginning", Creation, the "now"-- being redeemed, "ever shall be" -- "return to grace" as was in the beginning. All things to be returned as if nothing had happened. No more sorrow, no more pain, no death. What do you think all this means?
"I Am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"
Peace
posted by: bhokuto
December 12, 2007
3:41 pm
Lost Paradise.
Paradise Revisited.
Paradise
So do you think that in the new age of Christ (His reign) that we will be speaking 400 different languages? Do you think in Heaven all the different races will be speaking to God and one another cross platform trying to converse with one another? Chinese, Japanese, English, German, and so on? Do you think that race is still continued as on earth? Read intently.
One Race of People the Bible says. One Race means One Language.
Peace
posted by: David T Garrison
December 13, 2007
7:22 am
Dado,
You wrote much, so please check back as I will respond to what you wrote.
A short answer, for now, as to the reason behind the post, was to contend that Christ fulfilled and is the beginning, middle and end of Judaism as it was presented to Israel by the Triune God. You see, as Catholics, we understand a different perspective of salvation history.
A poster named Joseph put forth that Christianity never needed to "absorb" Judaism and to that I say, hogwash! Christianity is Judaism, for Christ is the fulfillment of all that they did and sought.
You asked what aspect of Judaism as it was known before Christ ceased to exist, and to that I say all that the prophets spoke about, beginning with Moses, entered the world. I cited Paul because he seems to be the protestant authority, therefore, substantiating my initial claim to Joseph.
You asked if the Jewish people are culpable if they do not respond to Christ. Are you? Is anyone? Are not we all?
You also asked who can blame them if they don't hear the call of Christ, and to that I say, only God.
As to the false prophets, check the Moment with Mary thread for some insight into the mindset of Judaism around the time of Christ's ministry.
It seems I had a little more time, so, you also wrote, And it seems Jesus didn't make it easy on the Jews.
No, he didn't, and this was also to fulfill prophecy.
So, to continue the conversation, but not limit it to such, what was the role of Israel under the old covenant and are they fulfilling that part of their agreement with God today?
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: David T Garrison
December 13, 2007
7:26 am
Bobo,
I just hope to be speaking your language. I love you, brother, but the two of us are a fine example of needing Christ to return at once.
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: David T Garrison
December 13, 2007
1:56 pm
Dado,
As to our Christian witness, in particular my own, I can only try. I am human and fall often, but I would like to state that while Mother Theresa may be an anamoly, there are hundreds of thousands if not tens of millions Christians laboring for Christ each in their own way without the publicity or high profile work that Mother endured.
All too often, we, especially Catholics, are held under a microscope that feels like a magnifying glass in the hands of the Devil. I do not condemn the Jews of today or the past, and I will not bear the weight of slavery or Manifest Destiny as my shoulders are not strong enough. However, with understanding and charity, I must claim that what is true; no one will go to the Father except through the Son. I, for one, desire eternal brotherhood for myself and the whole world.
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: David T Garrison
December 13, 2007
2:37 pm
For your consideration,
I was going to post a sampling but it didn't view well. Here is a link. If the Rashi commentary is hidden, click to view, it is quite interesting when read from a Jewish perspective while understood from a Catholic one.http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/9994/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-30.htmIn Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: David T Garrison
December 13, 2007
2:37 pm
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: bhokuto
December 13, 2007
6:39 pm
David,
we all are. tweak!
Peace
posted by: David T Garrison
December 14, 2007
6:24 am
Bobo,
What did you mean by "tweak!"?
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: noelfitz
December 14, 2007
7:45 am
David
Thank you for the nice things you have said about me. Thus in friendship I submit this post.
I am reading again the topic about Catholics and Jews, which you started.
Did you imply that the words you wrote reflect Paul’s teachingl?
For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man has somewhat also to offer...
These sound like the words from the Letter to the Hebrews which Paul did not write.
For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer... (NRSV Heb 8:3ff.).
I am afraid I disagree with you when you say Judaism no longer exists.
Dado gave an excellent reply quoting the CCC.
Winslow poses a fundamental question “Does the old Covenant still exist?".
PTR also ask an interesting question.
The Lord said that Heaven amd earth may pass away, but my word will not.
The whole topic to me is very difficult and demands much study and prayer.
Let us see what Paul actually said:
I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people, my kindred according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (NRSV, Rom 9:2-5).
But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside (NRSV, 2 Cor 9:4).
My point is this: the law, which came four hundred thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise (NRSV, Gal 3:17)
The whole question is very difficult, as can be see by the various nuances in the replies in this discussion.
However it is worth studying.[1]
God bless,
NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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posted by: David T Garrison
December 14, 2007
9:17 am
Noel,
Most excellent Theophilus, you are indeed correct that Paul is not mentioned in this letter as he is in other's stating clearly that it is he who writes the words contained therein. I most certainly was making a claim that these were Paul's words. However, since it reads much like an apostolic exhortation, as if it was a combined effort using pronouns such as we, Paul could have been a collaborator.
Remember, I do not say that Judaism no longer exists, only the practice of Judaism before Christ, the fulfillment of all that Judaism hoped for.
Which Old Covenant are we going to talk about? Noahic, Abrahamic, the Covenant with Lot, the Covenant with Jacob, the Mosaic, the Israel Covenant or the Davidic?
In these Covenants we can gain some understanding in Jesus' words about heaven and earth passing away but not His Word.
Noahic - no longer shall God destroy everyone, the sign of a rainbow as a reminder to God, in effect, thank you Jesus
Abrahamic - circumcision, for health and religious reasons still in effect
with Lot - seems to be fulfilled
with Jacob - seems to be fulfilled
Mosaic - Ten Commandments - in existence
Israel Covenant - very interesting what this is perceived as and goes to what I posted above in Dt 30 - definitely needs to be read, re-read and prayed upon.
Davidic - fulfilled in Jesus Christ
In a nutshell, the Covenant is as follows: I will be your God and you will be My people. What is God's role? What is the role of the people? God will love them and protect them. The people will obey His commandments. If the people to not obey then they break the Covenant. God is incapable of breaking any Covenant.
As to that which is attributed to Paul, For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people, does he write this to mean that he would rather it be only him than those whose minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside?
The whole question may be difficult, but I stand by my statement that Catholicism, in Christ, is the fulfillment of Judaism as it was established by God, taught by the Holy Spirit through the words of the New Testament.
Since I have not as of yet had a response, let me offer again this question, what was the role of Israel under the old covenant and are they fulfilling that part of their agreement with God today?
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: bhokuto
December 14, 2007
2:26 pm
David,
you said we both are fine examples, I replied "we all are", as in we need to be rescued.
Peace
posted by: David T Garrison
December 14, 2007
10:39 pm
Bobo,
Got that part, what I asked is what did you mean by "tweak"?
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: bhokuto
December 15, 2007
6:07 am
David,
tweak just means I added something to your comment, to build upon.
Peace
posted by: David T Garrison
December 18, 2007
6:41 am
Noel, Dado and PTR,
Are we done here?
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: dado
December 18, 2007
1:21 pm
David,
Maybe for now but there are a few thoughts percolating. The "season" is keeping me pretty occupied right now.
Dado
AMDG